In light of the tragic news of six Israeli hostages being killed, it's clear that Prime Minister Netanyahu will prolong the war just to stay in power. But, what is his end game for Palestinians?
Thank you for this. It is so in line with what I have felt about this whole thing. As soon as Oct 7 happened I started reading up on the history of Israel's actions since the 1968 war and found myself more and more horrified. I can't condone the kind of terrorism of 10/7 but I sure can understand what motivated it. I can condemn rape and murder and at the same time recognize that it isn't confined to one group only. That gets me labeled antisemitic in way too many places. "Pro Hamas" you must be. No, I am anti war and anti autocrat, anti censorship, anti taking other people's property because your holy book tells you it is "really" yours.
I try to stay away from hot button words like "genocide" or "apartheid" though they do fit in many ways. But using them just stiffens resistance to common sense. The dialogue just turns to "well, not really because....reasons." The FACTS of what is happening have to be more and more widely spread here in the US.. Not just the killing from the war--that hauls out the tired old "human shield" stuff. But the TREATMENT of the Palestinian people as not really human.
When I try to say that pro-Palestinian isn't Pro Hamas, I get told "oh, but surveys in Gaza show Palestinians support Hamas." Actually, they didn't before this war; Hamas didn't even get into power with a majority vote, let alone the votes of those too young to vote at the time. Now? Well, duh. The only ones defending--or trying to defend-- the Gazans from the rain of destruction are those now fighting for Hamas. And I very much doubt that those fighting now are all actually Hamas members or filled with "river to the sea" ideology. What would YOU do if someone killed your family and friends and kept doing it, but fight?
I agree that "Israel has a right to defend itself" but that begs the question of what "defense" entails; what has happened to the idea that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? "You have had ideological masters governing since they took over by coup so you just have to sit back and let us destroy you, your homes and children, so we can get at the masters who acted outrageously."
And it is so blinking OBVIOUS that the aim of killing "every Hamas member" is just going to breed more fighters against Israel, folks who wouldn't have dreamed about fighting before this all started. Even some IDF people keep saying this.
I get incoherent when people say "well, why didn't /don't the Palestinians just rise up and throw out Hamas." With what? The Israeli blockade didn't even let hypodermic needles through because they might be used as weapons. The main thing that WAS let through were wads of money to support Hamas under Bibi's cool plan to set them against the PA.
I also became much more aware of the things going on in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They were horrible enough before. A Day in the Life of Abed Salama by Nathan Thrall (an American Jew living in Jerusalem) was eye-opening. I've subscribed to Haaretz; there are indeed Israelis who are as horrified as I am, though I guess they are dismissed as "just leftists." And it is getting worse and worse.
I have loads of Jewish Facebook friends, very active and ALL opposed to the actions of the Israeli government. Those who aren't have presumably blocked me by now, but those are few. (At past 80 I have fewer and fewer face to face friends, though some are Jewish and equally opposed. That's what happens when you live in the bluest corner of a very blue state.)
What struck me about this interview--and in a film by Zeteo which I have reposted--is the blind sense of ENTITLEMENT so many Israeli citizens now have and use as an excuse. "We once suffered horribly so it is our right to inflict suffering on those unfortunate enough to be governed by Hamas." Add to that "and we are entitled to act, in accordance with the words of Likud's actual manifesto back in 1977 ""Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
Partly it seems to be the fact that the horrors are being kept from the Israeli public. The opposition to Netanyahu seems to be centered on the plight of the hostages; I shudder to think what the public would feel if Hamas were NOT holding hostages. One can only assume that Hamas realized this when deciding to TAKE hostages. And I suspect that IF there is a ceasefire that releases the remaining hostages and then Israel says "Oh, agreement? We don't have to keep no stinkin' agreement" and heads back in, that even that opposition will die down.
The only thing that will end all this, short of the sort of international effort done in the Balkans, will be Israelis as a whole taking some responsibility for the actions of their government--not to mention kicking it out. I am NOT saying they are all war mongers or Islamophobes or even unreasonable people. I can only assume that the vast majority want to live in peace, in their homes and with their neighbors.
I keep hoping that Biden/Harris/Walz will come to their senses and finally agree that a red line is well and truly crossed. I see NO reason for continuing to supply offensive weapons and that strikes me as a pretty big stick they could use. To avoid political flak from the pro-Israel lobby, Biden is actually in a position to do so himself--he not longer has his own skin in the political game--and Harris/Walz could take a milder, more placating course if need be.
Again, thanks for this interview. Sorry to go on at such length. I have always liked the basic idea of Israel as an at long last Jewish homeland--hey, I watched Paul Newman in Exodus and read the book as a young teen--and I feel passionately that it is destroying itself far more thoroughly than anything Hamas or Hezbollah could actually do to it. Israel does face an existential threat, but that threat is coming from Jerusalem, not Gaza City or Lebanon.
I have Arab and Jewish friends, both. I started to read everything I could identify to give me a deeper sense of what has gone on in the past and what is going on now, in part to be able to discuss the most illogical things I heard pro-Israel people saying. Now I don't feel a need to write more myself because there are people like Wajahat and Qasim and Mehdi and Peter (Beinart) and Mitchell (Plitnick) and seemingly half the op-ed writers at Haaretz telling the story.
I've actually posted a LOT on my own Substack (link next to my name. your link by the way leads to your private section; the link next to YOUR name is how I got to your own piece, which I agree with.) There's a lot on mine on Palestinians in general and on WTF antisemitism is, especially around the time of the college protests. In fact, my very first real post ("On Cause and Blame) was Oct 12th and involved Bibi's onslaught.
The argument I got all the time back then involved the term Zionist. Lots of people insisted that that there was only ONE meaning of Zionist, and that was simply believing Israel has a right to exist. Thus saying "anti-Zionist" must mean antisemitic. In fact, I see the term now mostly applied to the far right, the Likudists who believe that the whole area should be Jewish, because, well, the Bible. (Actually Gaza was for the most part the home of the Philistines, who were clearly around in Biblical times). "Zionist" in this more limited sense is used to distinguish that far right from normal Jews/Israelis/non-Jews who believe that Israel of course has a right to exist, but that existence doesn't mean absolute virtue in leaders.
I also argued a lot that Free Palestine doesn't mean "take over Israel." It means just what it says--stop the control and attempted control of Palestinian citizens of either Israel itself or the "occupied" areas or Gaza. That's when I got into the nitty gritty about how the Israeli government has been treating Palestinians since 1968.
I thought I'd posted on my Substack the following article from the NYT but perhaps not. It does an excellent job of describing Israeli treatment of Palestinians. It's one reason I haven't cancelled the NYT despite a whole lot of despicable stuff on our own elections.
If we characterize a whole people by how its government acts, lord help Americans during the trump era (or even worse if there is a trump 2.0). That's why I am puzzled by statements that "there are few Leftists left in Israel." Those who say this, including the guy on this video, MUST mean "in the government." Haaretz refutes the idea that Leftists have disappeared.
I didn't post this comment itself because I've said it all in numerous posts. But perhaps I should. I restacked the video. There is another one on the same topic by Wajahat that I haven't had a chance to look at.
If being against the current government of Israel is antisemitic, I have a WHOLE LOT of antisemitic Jewish friends. Including one who trained to be a rabbi, though he gave up on that as he grew older.
The legacy of Biden will be that Netanyahu called the shot in 2023/ 2024 /2025? Genocidal war and the Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful country in the world just pathetically obeyed the War Criminal.
How could the Palestinians possibly rebuild the physical infrastructure of the country without enormous on-going handouts from foreign countries? And they would need military protection against raiders and opportunists at the same time. Who would be willing to provide that? And might that entity feel justified in attacking Israel all over again for creating these conditions?
This seems to be an inflection point when starvation and horrible lack of sanitary conditions are allowing the spread of destructive diseases. If these become endemic then another layer has been laid on top of everything else that would be hard to clean up.
I assumed Netanyahu was pursuing this course for himself. If he had wished to free the hostages, he should have reached a solution ages ago. I do not believe most of the hostages are still alive. Videos, etc. have not been seen since April as I understand it. The conditions are such that only the heartiest would survive. Hamas will leave the hope out there as a negotiating tactic, but I think it would be a false flag operation.
I was very interested to hear Khaled Elginy speak to Israel’s ability to pinpoint target when they choose. I had always believed the Mossad extremely capable in such undertakings. So I have been dumbfounded by what is happening. I understand that Hamas is a loathsome, inhuman organization that Israel would like to destroy, but let’s be realistic. As they say, you can chop off a hydra’s head but it will only grow another. In addition, and perhaps most importantly for the fate of the Palestinians, if the people of Gaza didn’t hate Israel before, they do now. The chances of a lasting peace are dwindling to zero.
I am appalled at what happened on Oct. 7. Hamas behaved like animals. They are at fault for that. Why Israel didn’t know such a highly trained force was coming is beyond me. That is their fault. But the Gazan people seem to get the short end of the stick all the time. First their lands are taken after WWII. Surely those who were attacked by the Germans in the ghettos, etc. must feel some pity for them? Perhaps I am simply too naive for words. But then for Israel to make incursions into the West Bank—that is a provocation. I know Israel is frightened for its security, but was that the best way to ensure it? I would suggest causing reasonable outrage among your neighbors will inevitably have bad consequences. I know—I want everything for everybody. I have a high regard for Israel and the Israeli people. I studied with a rabbi for several years to understand Jewish philosophy. Needless to say, it was not long enough. I just feel that such a strong people should be able to figure out different ways to do things. By all means root out as much of Hamas as possible, but consider the relative costs of doing so. If Netenyahu never intended to get the hostages out (.this is unbelievably harsh) he could have flooded Hamas’ tunnel network killing those who were not living abroad.
I remain unhappy and perplexed, but I thank you for the podcast. Some of my thoughts have been given support.
Thank you so much for this session. I first heard Khaled Elgindy on a podcast with Brené Brown, and based on that, I got and read his book. Every American should read Blind Spot before they vote in November to understand just what he is talking about when he says that an American president could end this if they wanted to badly enough. All the shrugging of shoulders, the "what can we do?" as if the US government is somehow lacking the power to end the cleansing of Palestinians from the land. The US has "the most lethal fighting force" but no ability to leverage outcomes? What human purpose does this "lethal force" without "decency, ethics, or morality"? When will the day come when the US government represents the strongest force for good in the world? Because it could choose to be that.
IMO, Bibi Netanyahu and Donald Trump are extremely similar in nature and in their goals. Both men believe themselves to be above the law, both men believe themselves to be entitled to whatever the hell they want, and both men have no conscience. IMO. From what I glean from the reporting from several sources since the day after 10/7/23, Netanyahu won't rest until he has complete control of Gaza and the West Bank. I believe that at the least ethnic cleansing is the goal, but more likely it is genocide. Netanyahu has shown little regard for the lives and safety of Israelis, especially now as he's expanding the war possibly to Iran (again a means to hold on to power and to escape justice from his indictments). He shows no regard, and even hostility towards the lives of the Palestinian people. Every time it seems to get close to a cease fire agreement, Netanyahu does something provocative after giving the impression he was cooperating. It doesn't seem to me that he will ever cooperate. I no longer believe what Netanyahu and his cabinet say. There's been too much deception.
Thank you for this. It is so in line with what I have felt about this whole thing. As soon as Oct 7 happened I started reading up on the history of Israel's actions since the 1968 war and found myself more and more horrified. I can't condone the kind of terrorism of 10/7 but I sure can understand what motivated it. I can condemn rape and murder and at the same time recognize that it isn't confined to one group only. That gets me labeled antisemitic in way too many places. "Pro Hamas" you must be. No, I am anti war and anti autocrat, anti censorship, anti taking other people's property because your holy book tells you it is "really" yours.
I try to stay away from hot button words like "genocide" or "apartheid" though they do fit in many ways. But using them just stiffens resistance to common sense. The dialogue just turns to "well, not really because....reasons." The FACTS of what is happening have to be more and more widely spread here in the US.. Not just the killing from the war--that hauls out the tired old "human shield" stuff. But the TREATMENT of the Palestinian people as not really human.
When I try to say that pro-Palestinian isn't Pro Hamas, I get told "oh, but surveys in Gaza show Palestinians support Hamas." Actually, they didn't before this war; Hamas didn't even get into power with a majority vote, let alone the votes of those too young to vote at the time. Now? Well, duh. The only ones defending--or trying to defend-- the Gazans from the rain of destruction are those now fighting for Hamas. And I very much doubt that those fighting now are all actually Hamas members or filled with "river to the sea" ideology. What would YOU do if someone killed your family and friends and kept doing it, but fight?
I agree that "Israel has a right to defend itself" but that begs the question of what "defense" entails; what has happened to the idea that Palestinians have a right to defend themselves? "You have had ideological masters governing since they took over by coup so you just have to sit back and let us destroy you, your homes and children, so we can get at the masters who acted outrageously."
And it is so blinking OBVIOUS that the aim of killing "every Hamas member" is just going to breed more fighters against Israel, folks who wouldn't have dreamed about fighting before this all started. Even some IDF people keep saying this.
I get incoherent when people say "well, why didn't /don't the Palestinians just rise up and throw out Hamas." With what? The Israeli blockade didn't even let hypodermic needles through because they might be used as weapons. The main thing that WAS let through were wads of money to support Hamas under Bibi's cool plan to set them against the PA.
I also became much more aware of the things going on in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. They were horrible enough before. A Day in the Life of Abed Salama by Nathan Thrall (an American Jew living in Jerusalem) was eye-opening. I've subscribed to Haaretz; there are indeed Israelis who are as horrified as I am, though I guess they are dismissed as "just leftists." And it is getting worse and worse.
I have loads of Jewish Facebook friends, very active and ALL opposed to the actions of the Israeli government. Those who aren't have presumably blocked me by now, but those are few. (At past 80 I have fewer and fewer face to face friends, though some are Jewish and equally opposed. That's what happens when you live in the bluest corner of a very blue state.)
What struck me about this interview--and in a film by Zeteo which I have reposted--is the blind sense of ENTITLEMENT so many Israeli citizens now have and use as an excuse. "We once suffered horribly so it is our right to inflict suffering on those unfortunate enough to be governed by Hamas." Add to that "and we are entitled to act, in accordance with the words of Likud's actual manifesto back in 1977 ""Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty."
Partly it seems to be the fact that the horrors are being kept from the Israeli public. The opposition to Netanyahu seems to be centered on the plight of the hostages; I shudder to think what the public would feel if Hamas were NOT holding hostages. One can only assume that Hamas realized this when deciding to TAKE hostages. And I suspect that IF there is a ceasefire that releases the remaining hostages and then Israel says "Oh, agreement? We don't have to keep no stinkin' agreement" and heads back in, that even that opposition will die down.
The only thing that will end all this, short of the sort of international effort done in the Balkans, will be Israelis as a whole taking some responsibility for the actions of their government--not to mention kicking it out. I am NOT saying they are all war mongers or Islamophobes or even unreasonable people. I can only assume that the vast majority want to live in peace, in their homes and with their neighbors.
I keep hoping that Biden/Harris/Walz will come to their senses and finally agree that a red line is well and truly crossed. I see NO reason for continuing to supply offensive weapons and that strikes me as a pretty big stick they could use. To avoid political flak from the pro-Israel lobby, Biden is actually in a position to do so himself--he not longer has his own skin in the political game--and Harris/Walz could take a milder, more placating course if need be.
Again, thanks for this interview. Sorry to go on at such length. I have always liked the basic idea of Israel as an at long last Jewish homeland--hey, I watched Paul Newman in Exodus and read the book as a young teen--and I feel passionately that it is destroying itself far more thoroughly than anything Hamas or Hezbollah could actually do to it. Israel does face an existential threat, but that threat is coming from Jerusalem, not Gaza City or Lebanon.
You should publish some version of your comment! The first thing I did was look into the idea that being against the actions of the government of Israel was inherently anti-Jewish racism, and I wrote this piece https://hardlandings.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/144069536?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fposts
I have Arab and Jewish friends, both. I started to read everything I could identify to give me a deeper sense of what has gone on in the past and what is going on now, in part to be able to discuss the most illogical things I heard pro-Israel people saying. Now I don't feel a need to write more myself because there are people like Wajahat and Qasim and Mehdi and Peter (Beinart) and Mitchell (Plitnick) and seemingly half the op-ed writers at Haaretz telling the story.
I've actually posted a LOT on my own Substack (link next to my name. your link by the way leads to your private section; the link next to YOUR name is how I got to your own piece, which I agree with.) There's a lot on mine on Palestinians in general and on WTF antisemitism is, especially around the time of the college protests. In fact, my very first real post ("On Cause and Blame) was Oct 12th and involved Bibi's onslaught.
The argument I got all the time back then involved the term Zionist. Lots of people insisted that that there was only ONE meaning of Zionist, and that was simply believing Israel has a right to exist. Thus saying "anti-Zionist" must mean antisemitic. In fact, I see the term now mostly applied to the far right, the Likudists who believe that the whole area should be Jewish, because, well, the Bible. (Actually Gaza was for the most part the home of the Philistines, who were clearly around in Biblical times). "Zionist" in this more limited sense is used to distinguish that far right from normal Jews/Israelis/non-Jews who believe that Israel of course has a right to exist, but that existence doesn't mean absolute virtue in leaders.
I also argued a lot that Free Palestine doesn't mean "take over Israel." It means just what it says--stop the control and attempted control of Palestinian citizens of either Israel itself or the "occupied" areas or Gaza. That's when I got into the nitty gritty about how the Israeli government has been treating Palestinians since 1968.
I thought I'd posted on my Substack the following article from the NYT but perhaps not. It does an excellent job of describing Israeli treatment of Palestinians. It's one reason I haven't cancelled the NYT despite a whole lot of despicable stuff on our own elections.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/16/magazine/israel-west-bank-settler-violence-impunity.html
If we characterize a whole people by how its government acts, lord help Americans during the trump era (or even worse if there is a trump 2.0). That's why I am puzzled by statements that "there are few Leftists left in Israel." Those who say this, including the guy on this video, MUST mean "in the government." Haaretz refutes the idea that Leftists have disappeared.
I didn't post this comment itself because I've said it all in numerous posts. But perhaps I should. I restacked the video. There is another one on the same topic by Wajahat that I haven't had a chance to look at.
If being against the current government of Israel is antisemitic, I have a WHOLE LOT of antisemitic Jewish friends. Including one who trained to be a rabbi, though he gave up on that as he grew older.
The legacy of Biden will be that Netanyahu called the shot in 2023/ 2024 /2025? Genocidal war and the Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful country in the world just pathetically obeyed the War Criminal.
How could the Palestinians possibly rebuild the physical infrastructure of the country without enormous on-going handouts from foreign countries? And they would need military protection against raiders and opportunists at the same time. Who would be willing to provide that? And might that entity feel justified in attacking Israel all over again for creating these conditions?
This seems to be an inflection point when starvation and horrible lack of sanitary conditions are allowing the spread of destructive diseases. If these become endemic then another layer has been laid on top of everything else that would be hard to clean up.
I assumed Netanyahu was pursuing this course for himself. If he had wished to free the hostages, he should have reached a solution ages ago. I do not believe most of the hostages are still alive. Videos, etc. have not been seen since April as I understand it. The conditions are such that only the heartiest would survive. Hamas will leave the hope out there as a negotiating tactic, but I think it would be a false flag operation.
I was very interested to hear Khaled Elginy speak to Israel’s ability to pinpoint target when they choose. I had always believed the Mossad extremely capable in such undertakings. So I have been dumbfounded by what is happening. I understand that Hamas is a loathsome, inhuman organization that Israel would like to destroy, but let’s be realistic. As they say, you can chop off a hydra’s head but it will only grow another. In addition, and perhaps most importantly for the fate of the Palestinians, if the people of Gaza didn’t hate Israel before, they do now. The chances of a lasting peace are dwindling to zero.
I am appalled at what happened on Oct. 7. Hamas behaved like animals. They are at fault for that. Why Israel didn’t know such a highly trained force was coming is beyond me. That is their fault. But the Gazan people seem to get the short end of the stick all the time. First their lands are taken after WWII. Surely those who were attacked by the Germans in the ghettos, etc. must feel some pity for them? Perhaps I am simply too naive for words. But then for Israel to make incursions into the West Bank—that is a provocation. I know Israel is frightened for its security, but was that the best way to ensure it? I would suggest causing reasonable outrage among your neighbors will inevitably have bad consequences. I know—I want everything for everybody. I have a high regard for Israel and the Israeli people. I studied with a rabbi for several years to understand Jewish philosophy. Needless to say, it was not long enough. I just feel that such a strong people should be able to figure out different ways to do things. By all means root out as much of Hamas as possible, but consider the relative costs of doing so. If Netenyahu never intended to get the hostages out (.this is unbelievably harsh) he could have flooded Hamas’ tunnel network killing those who were not living abroad.
I remain unhappy and perplexed, but I thank you for the podcast. Some of my thoughts have been given support.
Endgame: complete annihilation of Palestine. With time it will be given a special name like the holocaust
Thank you so much for this session. I first heard Khaled Elgindy on a podcast with Brené Brown, and based on that, I got and read his book. Every American should read Blind Spot before they vote in November to understand just what he is talking about when he says that an American president could end this if they wanted to badly enough. All the shrugging of shoulders, the "what can we do?" as if the US government is somehow lacking the power to end the cleansing of Palestinians from the land. The US has "the most lethal fighting force" but no ability to leverage outcomes? What human purpose does this "lethal force" without "decency, ethics, or morality"? When will the day come when the US government represents the strongest force for good in the world? Because it could choose to be that.
IMO, Bibi Netanyahu and Donald Trump are extremely similar in nature and in their goals. Both men believe themselves to be above the law, both men believe themselves to be entitled to whatever the hell they want, and both men have no conscience. IMO. From what I glean from the reporting from several sources since the day after 10/7/23, Netanyahu won't rest until he has complete control of Gaza and the West Bank. I believe that at the least ethnic cleansing is the goal, but more likely it is genocide. Netanyahu has shown little regard for the lives and safety of Israelis, especially now as he's expanding the war possibly to Iran (again a means to hold on to power and to escape justice from his indictments). He shows no regard, and even hostility towards the lives of the Palestinian people. Every time it seems to get close to a cease fire agreement, Netanyahu does something provocative after giving the impression he was cooperating. It doesn't seem to me that he will ever cooperate. I no longer believe what Netanyahu and his cabinet say. There's been too much deception.
I had always planned to study Arabic too. (See above)